♪ Host> Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad is an author and a psychotherapist and licensed family therapist with more than twenty years of experience in relationship and life coaching.

Jeannelle> When I decided to go to school, I said, I want to do family therapy because it would be the best way to figure out what theories would help them not necessarily have recidivism, as you will -- Holly> Sure.

Jeannelle> --through counseling on a regular basis for the same challenges.

So I decided to do my Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy and then do my PhD in Counselor Education and Supervision, because I found that a lot of the time we didn't have those counselors who look like us, who really understood.

So we needed to train others to be able to understand the paths that we've taken.

Host> Her book, "Into-Me-See" explores the cultural and personal factors that can make it challenging for Black couples to develop and maintain intimacy.

>> Two populations actually.

So the first is going to be African Americans who are seeking to better understand how they can communicate, how they can be more emotionally available to one another, and really how to jump some of the hurdles that are affecting us from generations of challenges that we've had.

And so then the second would be my colleagues, so that they have an opportunity to really look at some of the areas where they might hold bias or just be unaware of what the challenges are within the African American community to being able to truly connect and be one.

Host> Dr. Perkins Muhammad talks with me about her spiritual experience and evidence-based therapy.

I'm Holly Jackson.

Join us as we bring you powerful stories from both new and established Southern authors as we sit by the river.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Major funding for "By The River" is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than forty years, the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV, and South Carolina Public Radio.

>> Hi, and welcome to "By The River."

I'm your host Holly Jackson.

You know, "By The River" is a show that goes beyond the book and it helps you get a better understanding of the journey that led the author to their story.

We kind of get the behind the scenes of how they got to this story and "By The River" has a great lineup for you this season.

We're really excited about it and especially today's guest.

It is Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad, and she comes to us from Charleston today.

But you've been all over.

I love how you said you bloom where you're planted and you've done that since 2016 in Charleston.

Jeannelle> That's right.

Holly> Beautiful city.

Yeah.

Holly> Tell us a little bit about your background.

I think it's important before we start talking about the book to know your professional life.

Jeannelle> Absolutely.

Thank you for having me.

You know, it's really quite interesting because my parents were ministers and I come from a, a place where a lot of the time they were doing a lot of marriage excellence work is the way we saw it, as well as finance in terms of helping people discover how they could work best together.

And oftentimes, I would say to them, we kind of see the same people come back all the time.

What's happening?

When I decided to go to school, I said I wanna do family therapy because it would be the best way to figure out what theories would help them not necessarily have recidivism, as you will -- Holly> Sure.

Jeannelle> -- through counseling on a regular basis for the same challenges.

So I decided to do my Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy and then do my PhD in Counselor Education and Supervision because I found that a lot of the time we didn't have those counselors who look like us, who really understood.

So we needed to train others to be able to understand the paths that we've taken.

>> And all of that has eventually led to this book -- Jeannelle> Absolutely.

Holly> -- we're talking about, "Into-Me-See" and what I love about it is, is a play on the word intimacy.

Jeannelle> That's right.

Holly> Tell me how you came about that word.

>> Well, it's funny because I happened to have been sitting in a sermon one time at church and I heard the pastor say something about, you know, into me, see, I mean, look at me, can you into, and I kept going, wait a minute, that's intimacy.

Holly> That's the word.

Jeannelle> Right?

And it was really great because he wasn't necessarily talking about marital relationships, he was just saying, look deeper into who I am.

And I just said, well, of course, if we can do that as individuals, we can certainly do that in a marital situation, a coupling of people.

Look beyond the person I am, the physicality, and study my cognitive, my emotional, and my spiritual perspectives.

>> Who would you say that this book is targeted to?

>> Hmm.

Two populations actually.

So the first is going to be African Americans who are seeking to better understand how they can communicate, how they can be more emotionally available to one another, and really how to jump some of the hurdles that are affecting us from generations of challenges that we've had.

And so then the second would be my colleagues, so that they have an opportunity to really look at some of the areas where they might hold bias or just be unaware of what the challenges are within the African American community to being able to truly connect and be more intimate with one another.

Holly> Okay.

Well, let's take a chance to inform our viewers of that, something that they might not know.

So tell me, and me as well, tell me about that African American experience and how it might, or how it does impact relationships, connection, intimacy.

>> Sure.

It's one of the things that I think most people don't really consider is that institutional, structural, as well as, I mean just societal racism has an impact on everything that we do as African Americans.

So literally 24/7, we're walking around in a bit of fight, flight or freeze because we just don't know when there's going to come a challenge that is simply because of the way that we look.

So there's a lot of anxiety connected to that.

And oftentimes a great deal of depression from pressure that exists and trying to be more, better, the best in the room so that people are able to see beyond the fact that your skin is darker than another.

Bring that home.

And now with the mental health being impacted, the way that we begin to even speak to one another, may be a little more harsh, because we can't really express that out in the public.

We can't let someone see that we're angry or irritated.

And the moment that we do, there's a whole nother set of challenges that come with authority and police brutality, or even not getting the, being seen as a true person, right?

Instead of being an angry black woman, can I just be passionate?

Right?

Can I just love what I'm talking about?

Or truly be upset or disappointed and still not be angry?

And oftentimes when you come home, the place that receives the heat of that anger, that disappointment, that irritation is your spouse or loved one.

Holly> You know, something you said just hit home with me.

And that was whenever I was having some struggles with my oldest daughter at one time with, you know, the way she would speak to me and stuff.

And I actually called the school counselor and she said, you're her safe person.

This is, while it's hard to, to feel this, you should, you should feel good about- you're the person she's coming to with this.

And I'm thinking, Hmm, I gotta, it's gonna be hard for me to get there to say thank you that you're, you know, I'm the one, but, but, but that's right.

>> But very similar because -- Holly> Right.

>> Oftentimes there isn't a safe space.

If you have two African Americans who are working outside of the home, where then do they get to come home and just exist, not necessarily have to contend with all that has happened on the outside.

Holly> And something you said really made me think there, because there's that guard all day long and just by turning the door to your home and walking in, it can't just go down.

>> No, it doesn't just drop.

Holly> Right.

Jeannelle> So you have to learn the skills for ways to communicate more effectively, understanding the emotions that truly exist.

And beyond that, looking at the cognitive perspective: What traumas have existed in childhood that are impacting the relationship now?

We don't always think about it like that.

In my practice, we do an adverse childhood experiences survey, and what that basically tells us is out of ten questions, how many of these traumatic experiences have existed in your childhood before age 18?

And most people don't even realize that they have them because in our community they've been so normalized.

>> Right.

Now you've, you've told me that you've lived all over, and right now you're in Charleston, so we're talking about the black experience, but can we bring in the black experience in the Deep South?

How does that -- >> Yeah.

>> How does that differ?

Jeannelle> It's really interesting because I moved to Charleston in 2016 and I said, "I grow where I'm planted."

But it took some doing to do that.

And mainly I think because the way in which people see me is very different.

When I was in the Maryland, DC area, I was amongst a host of other African Americans who were professionals who excelled at what they did.

And no one really challenged it as being outside of my place, which is something I was told often when I first moved here, find your place and get in it.

And I would joke about it being a therapist and say, move about and go, is it here or is it here?

That didn't always go over so well.

>> Right.

People weren't happy about it.

>> Sure.

I remember in other times when we had such political upheaval that I was actually afraid many times and did not go to work, chose to stay home.

>> Wow.

Because I, I didn't feel safe, and yet I didn't have a space where I could go home to and tell someone else, I'm not feeling safe.

Can you protect me?

So it's really important to be able to tap into those emotions, those friendships and support groups that would be able to then give you an opportunity to connect with one another and set aside some of the fears and concerns that exist from just being African American.

>> Now, I don't wanna give all the secrets away of the book, but let's talk about, you know, broadly some of those ways that they can get past that.

>> Absolutely.

So one of them is the emotional space that I talked about.

So having that conversation about what emotion are you feeling at this moment?

Is this truly anger?

Is this disappointment?

Or are you frustrated?

You're gonna respond differently if you're frustrated than you are if you're angry.

Those are different emotions.

I think the other piece is to recognize that we're only truly born with six emotions.

So anger, disgust, fear, happiness, sadness, and then disdain.

Right?

Six, we have to be taught all the other emotions.

You notice I didn't say anything about empathy?

>>Right.

So you have to be taught what empathy is.

And throughout the years, I'll go as far back as slavery.

As an African American, you weren't allowed to have your own set of emotions.

Your master told you what to feel.

And so you had to suppress those emotions.

And over the course of time, what we've taught one another through cultural conditioning is to do the exact same thing, far less vulnerable.

What we wanna do now is to open those pages a bit and begin to look at what are the other emotions that could be experienced and how do they show up in my life?

How am I behaving?

And then how could I do this such that we have a better relationship?

Holly> Now, this isn't new what I'm about to talk about, but it is constantly evolving.

Tell me about, now we bring social media into the mix.

How does that complicate things?

>> Yeah, tremendously.

It's only a picture of a moment in time.

Even in videos, when people are setting up the video, you're only seeing what they want you to see.

And so if you believe that what you're hearing and seeing is what should be in your own life, then you're setting yourself up for much disappointment.

You have to sit down with the people in your household and decide what the expectations are because unexpressed expectations will lead to resentment -- Holly> Mmm-hmm.

>> and this great disappointment.

And when I think back to even the spiritual component of that, a lot of the scripture that we stand on, which I still believe we should, puts us in a place where it can be a little unrealistic to expect it to just happen.

>> Right.

We have to be very intentional about getting to that next step.

And social media does not give us an opportunity to do that.

What it says is it should happen quickly and this is what it ought to look like.

And if you're moving in that frame, it's just not gonna work.

>> I, I constantly tell myself, this is the highlight reel.

Everybody is sharing their highlight reel.

You know, someone told me the other day, oh, it looks like y'all had such a good time on so and so trip.

I said, what you didn't, you saw something, but you didn't hear the audio of me saying, spa!, you know, so you have to remember that there's a whole lot more going on -- Jeannelle> Absolutely.

Holly> than what meets the eye.

Jeannelle> Yeah.

We don't always realize that.

And it's really unfortunate because I think we try to do that even when we look back at our parents and their relationships and we say things like, you know, my parents or grandparents were married for 50 years, but you don't know what it took for them to stay married for 50 years.

Because oftentimes they don't talk about that.

They're not vulnerable enough to share that information.

And if they did, I think it would really give a host of people, not just African Americans, but the opportunity to think about what do I want?

Which is why I wrote mastering black intimacy for the relationship you've always wanted.

This is not about having what your mom and dad had, your grandparents had, or even what you see on television.

It's about digging deep enough to decide for yourself, this is what I want relationships to look like.

Holly> That's beautiful.

Tell me about your research for this book.

I imagine it's with students, with with couples coming in.

What else did you do to get here?

>> Well, I, I tell you, I had to at some point go to Africa and sit for six weeks -- >> Really?

Jeannelle> -- and get it finished.

I took all my notes.

>> Oooh, okay.

I wanna hear a lot about that.

That's, that's really fascinating.

>> I took all my notes and all my documentation, and -- Holly> You just wanted to be in the presence?

>> I had to...

I wanted to be in a space where I was surrounded by my people and where I felt comfortable enough to just exist.

>> Right.

>> Without the anxiety of when I go to a store, is anybody following me?

When I go get something to eat, are people looking at me differently?

Is it, does anyone have something extra to say?

Because that happens on a regular basis just by existing in America.

So I went to Tanzania and sat at the hotel.

Holly> Was this the first time?

>> It was a first time.

>> Okay.

Sat at the hotel, went to the beach, sat and wrote, did a lot of processing of what my clients had gone through and experienced, my students in my practicum and internship programs.

And when I walked away, I found the couples that I really wanted to home in on.

And I was so pleased because that six weeks I brushed my hands -- >> You got it done?

Jeannelle> -- and said it's done, brought it back, gave it to the publisher, and we battled over the title 'cause they did not wanna put black intimacy there.

>> Oh.

>> And I said, no, that's what we're doing.

>> Right.

So it took a few weeks before they went ahead and let me have what I wanted.

>> Well, good for you for staying strong and putting up the fight.

>> Yeah.

Holly> But that trip to Africa, was it everything you thought it would be?

>> And more.

Holly> And more?

Jeannelle> And more.

What we see in America of what Africa is, is not Africa at all.

And I have literally traveled the world.

I have lived in a number of different countries, but this was my first time living for a month and a half in Africa.

And it was everything we have in America in terms of our culture, all in Africa, all speaking Swahili, all accepting me in a, I'll give you a prime example.

One of the, having dinner with a group of people and a young man walks up and begins to immediately speak Swahili to me.

And I turned to him and said, I, I'm sorry, I don't.

And he said, no, we apologize for sending you away.

Welcome home.

Oh, we love you.

>> Oh, gosh, wow.

And I just burst into tears.

It was very moving.

That's how inviting and welcoming it was.

And I plan to do it for the next book.

I'm going home.

>> Wow.

That's very touching.

Very touching.

I don't know if we mentioned in the beginning, we talked a little bit about your professional life, but did we get to the teaching part?

I don't, I'm not sure if we mentioned that.

>> No.

Okay.

So, tell me where you teach and what your demographic is in the classroom versus, you know, clients who come in and see you.

>> Yeah, it's a very broad demographic.

I teach at Liberty University in their Internship and Practicum program -- >> Okay.

>> -- Capella, both of their programs are online, but their students are here in the Charleston and the South Carolina area because they're looking for licensure here.

And so I'm a state license, or supervisor for licensure here in South Carolina.

And then at the Citadel, I do some adjunct work and the population is usually Caucasian in all of my classrooms.

Every now and again I'll have an African American student or an Indian student come through.

And it's exciting.

But I recognize that the whole reason I did counselor education and supervision as my PhD is because I knew I would be trying to help those who don't look like me understand.

>> Understand.

So I'm interested to know some standout examples, if you have any off the top of your head that you have gotten from that classroom.

I mean, is it, is it free talking of, this is what I thought versus you telling this is what it is or perceptions and that sort of thing.

>> Yeah.

And I think when you get into certain classrooms, the privilege that shines through is exceedingly bright.

And oftentimes they're even surprised to see or hear me speak with such accurate king's English, as one of my students said to me one time.

>> Oh, gosh.

>> (laughs) I thought that was cute.

I was like, I don't think I've heard that in a long time.

But it was really interesting because a lot of the time they do have some bias perceptions.

So I do things like have them take the Multicultural Awareness, Knowledge and Skills survey, which is a counselor survey for even testing where we are.

The only challenge is you do socially acceptable responses in that space.

So, of course, it's going to say that you're culturally competent.

Holly> Right, right, right.

Jeannelle> Well, the caveat is that if you have the opportunity to then also take the implicit bias assessment, which was developed by Harvard University, now you're only working with your site and touch.

And so when you see certain images or words, you're going to determine whether they're good or bad, pleasant or unpleasant.

And that's it.

And now your bias shines through and it looks very different from the cultural competence.

And so in a lot of the research that I've done, even with my students, what we find is that, of course, we wanna say that we're the, the socially acceptable response.

We want to say that whenever I see an African American, you know, coming down the sidewalk, I smile and I absolutely nod at them.

When in all actuality, when you see someone of color, you immediately go, uh-oh, um, unpleasant.

I'm afraid, what do I do?

Not everybody.

Right?

We're not monolithic in our perspectives.

So it's important for my students to recognize that exists early on so that they can then do the process of unlearning what they've been taught for many years.

>> Have you seen yet a change in this?

Is it too early?

I know, you know, me personally in the workplace, I, I've experienced lots of trainings, you know, basically of like what we've talked about over recent years and, you know, become aware of like, you know, these biases that you just don't even know that you have.

>> Yeah.

Microaggressions even.

Holly> Right, Right.

So have you seen yet a shift?

Are we getting better yet?

Or how long does that take?

Do you know?

>> I think we're gonna have to wait a little while still.

We only just begun really doing anything with diversity, equity, and inclusion in the last ten years or so.

Deep dives.

Right?

We've always kind of had some surface discussions and understanding, but when you really look at the full intersectionality of how that's going to blend into the workspace, people still go home.

And so it's almost like putting on a coat to come to work.

>>Oh.

Because when I go home, I'm back.

Holly> So we're back to that armor, but we're different people having different armors.

>> Yeah.

What we found in some of our research is actually that most African Americans have somewhere in a neighborhood of five to seven Caucasian friends that are true friends, have eaten in their home, they go to dinner together, they might even know more about them than they do about one of their family members that's, you know, not necessarily that close.

Holly> Right.

>> But most Caucasian people have one that they would consider a friend, but they haven't eaten in their home, they haven't gone out to dinner with them.

They're someone they consider a friend from work.

>> Right.

So the intersectionality of work is what's creating this space where we can say there's no longer any microaggressions.

There are no longer, there's no longer discrimination, there's no longer any type of bias.

The minute that you separate again and go home, you're back in that segregated, isolated environment where you don't even have to think about me anymore.

>> Very good.

All right.

So as we speak, this book has been out a few months.

>> Since January.

Okay.

What's the response been like so far?

>> Wonderful.

Holly> Okay.

>> Oh my goodness, so... Holly> Is it required reading for your class?

(laughter) Holly> Should be.

It is actually required reading for one of my classes.

>> Okay.

The Intimacy and Sexuality class.

But for the others, it is not required reading.

But it's been really great.

I've had a number of book signings all over the country.

I'm headed out to do some other things in a little bit.

And it's just been a lot of fun too, to watch people make the connection between generational trauma, mental health and intimacy.

And then be able to think, my goodness, what can I do either to help or what can I do in my situation?

Holly> So we have a couple minutes left.

What would you say for those of us who don't fall into that category but would like to help?

What's some advice you would give us that, you know, that we can hang on to and kind of keep in the back of our minds?

>> Yeah.

Have real relationships with those who don't look like you.

Really take an opportunity to get to know people.

Now, I will admit that can be a little challenging for African Americans.

We were often taught what goes on in this home stays in this home.

So you don't talk about it.

And there's a reason we can go back generationally for why that happens.

So it takes a little bit more and people sometimes think we're closed off and we are distant and don't wanna say anything.

That's not really true as much as it is we're not sure why you're asking.

>> Hmm.

So asking open-ended questions that are not so invasive that you're now telling someone about, you know, things that have happened in your life or your financial records or -- >> Sure.

>> Right?

But something to the nature of: What did you do this weekend that was most impactful?

And now, now you've opened a door to a conversation that might not even be about the fact that, you know, at home their grandfather was giving them heck about all kinds of things.

>> Right.

But it might be, I went to the beach and I literally just sat in the sun for a few hours and took a breath because I need to recharge sometimes.

Then it's, "Me too.

How do you usually recharge?"

I go and do, now we're having, having a conversation to connect with one another.

Holly> Deeper than what did you have to eat or whatever?

Right.

You're getting that deeper conversation.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

Holly> All right.

So you've got now author, check.

>> Yes.

You can do that.

Will you continue?

>> Absolutely.

I'm working on the second one and I probably at some point in the year, we'll go back to Africa and finish it up 'cause I'm pretty close and we'll see what happens.

So maybe.

>> Can you give us a little bit about what book two's about?

Or is it, is it still pretty secretive?

Jeannelle> It's pretty secretive still.

>> Okay.

Holly> Let me think of an open-ended question of how I can get you to where I want you to go.

(laughter) Thank you so much.

This has really been fascinating, educational, inspirational.

I really appreciate you stopping by and talking to us today.

Thank you.

And thank you everyone always for joining us here on "By The River."

I hope you've enjoyed this episode as much as I have and I also hope that you'll join us next time right here "By the River."

♪ ♪ Narrator> Major funding for "By The River" is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than forty years the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio.

♪ ♪